Lucas James is the Co-founder and CEO of Twiz, a digital marketing agency focused on driving leads for B2B service companies and online stores. Based in Los Angeles, Twiz was founded on the idea that traditional marketing companies were charging businesses too much without producing enough results. Lucas is also the Co-host of the podcast, How To Scale an Agency, and produces a variety of other content in the area of AI news and developing tech.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:
- Lucas James’ entrepreneurial journey
- The value of innovation and bootstrapping
- Lucas’ future business plans
- What inspired Lucas to build a software platform?
- Steps to building a successful product
- How creating content helps build a business
In this episode…
Entrepreneurship requires taking careful and strategic steps to bring your ideas to life. To increase your probability of success, you need to be innovative, creative, and open to learning new ways of doing business.
The most successful entrepreneurs understand their limitations and leverage their strengths to stand out in the industry. They develop creative strategies for solving complex problems, build sustainable lead-generation plans to attract high-value clients, and invest in the right technology. This is all conducive to increasing a company’s value.
In this episode of the Innovations and Breakthroughs Podcast, Rich Goldstein interviews Lucas James, the Co-founder and CEO and Twiz, about entrepreneurship and lead generation best practices. They also talk about the value of content, the steps to building a successful product, and Lucas’ inspiration to build a software platform.
Resources mentioned in this episode:
- Goldstein Patent Law
- The ABA Consumer Guide to Obtaining a Patent by Rich Goldstein
- Twiz Resources
- Lucas James on LinkedIn
- Elon Musk by Walter Isaacson
Sponsor for this episode…
This episode is brought to you by Goldstein Patent Law, a firm that helps protect inventors’ ideas and products. They have advised and obtained patents for thousands of companies over the past 25 years. So if you’re a company that has a software, product, or design you want protected, you can go to https://goldsteinpatentlaw.com/. They have amazing free resources for learning more about the patent process.
You can email their team at firstname.lastname@example.org to explore if it’s a match to work together. Rich Goldstein has also written a book for the American Bar Association that explains in plain English how patents work, which is called ‘The ABA Consumer Guide to Obtaining a Patent.’
Welcome to Innovations and Breakthroughs with your host Rich Goldstein, talking about the evolutionary, the revolutionary, the inspiration and perspiration, and those aha moments that change everything. And now here’s your host, Rich Goldstein.
Rich Goldstein here, host of the Innovations and Breakthroughs podcast, where I feature top leaders in the path they took to create change. Past guests include Ryan Deis, Joe Polish, and Jason Flatland. This episode is brought to you by my company, Goldstein Patent Law, where we help you to protect your ideas and products. We’ve advised and obtained patents for thousands of companies over the past 29 years. So if you’re a company that has software or product or design, you unprotected, go to goldstein patent law.com where there are amazing free resources for learning about the patent process, and you could find out if it’s a match to work together with us by scheduling a call with Larry Slavin on my email@example.com. You could also check out the book I wrote for the American Bar Association that explains in plain English how patents work. It’s called the a BA Consumer Guide to Obtaining a Patent. I have it from me here today. Lucas James Lucas is the CEO and co-founder ofw.io, where they help innovative companies to grow and scale. He’s also co-host of the podcast, how to scale an agency and produces a variety of other content, uh, in the area of AI news and developing tech. I’m really happy today to welcome Lucas James. Welcome Lucas.
Great to be here. Rich, thank you for the opportunity.
Yeah, absolutely. So just tell me a little bit about, about your journey, how you got started as an entrepreneur, and kind of what led you to, to, um, what you’re doing today.
Well, um, originally came to Los Angeles as someone pro pursuing, directing and acting back when I was in college. Um, I’ve been doing that my entire life and thought that’s the route I wanted to go down. Um, then I read a book, uh, which is actually about Elon Musk. It’s called Elon Musk, for anyone who hasn’t read it, it’s a really good book. And I think I was looking for a little bit more, uh, tangible ways that I could try to help solve some of the world’s biggest problems. I think that’s always been something interesting to me. I didn’t feel like I had that outlet with directing and, and acting because, you know, you might make a movie and it might, it might actually change people’s lives, which is amazing and it’s definitely really important. But, um, it’s hard to measure if that actually led to an outcome that could help people, uh, tangibly.
Like, you know, it’s hard to get bills passed just with a movie. A lot of movies have made leg legislation, uh, happen in, in the, in the world. Um, but it’s not like a direct process. However, with technology, you can, you can develop, uh, let’s say it’s in medical technology, you could develop something that actually tangibly reduces pain and suffering or disease. Um, and I think what I read when I read that book about Elon Musk was just, you know, here’s somebody who, uh, basically had all the money in the world after he sold his first company, and he didn’t need to do anything, but he decided to, and you know, now he’s kind of, uh, interesting character, I’d say to a lot of people I won’t comment on, on that. But, um, I will just say that it is inspirational, at least that he tried.
And he is trying, and he is doing things that are pretty amazing, um, for the world, and there’s a lot of people like him. And so I was drawn to entrepreneurship, so I started my first company as a means to, um, which is twist. It’s always been the same business for the last almost six years, uh, as a means to essentially, um, build up enough resources to then invest into technologies that I could grow and scale, and then eventually get into more direct things that I feel can help improve, uh, society. So I kind of see it as every step for me as like another step on this ladder towards, uh, building bigger and bigger solutions to bigger and bigger problems. And one of the best ways to solve these problems is to have a lot of capital. And so one of the ways I’m trying to accrue that is through my first company, and then hopefully take the capital from that company and invest it into bigger problems and bigger solutions that can try to be solved. So I’m, you know, I’m, I’m almost six years into this journey and it’s very new still. I mean, I’m, I’m still very early on in that journey, so hoping that it, uh, goes the way I’d like it to, but still very early. So.
Yeah. No, I, but I, I get it. And, um, and it’s kind of like, um, um, Elon Mosque, um, releasing the Roadster and the Model s first, like, sell the luxury cars first to finance the selling the one that’s more for the masses.
So that’s kind, it sounds like that’s kind of what you’ve been doing is you’ve been kind of, um, like looking to do some things that would lead toward things that then have a bigger impact.
Yeah, that is definitely what I’ve noticed. Uh, you know, you only have two ways really. Um, just my, my my point of view is you only really have two ways to like change the system. It’s either work within the system or create a system completely outside of the system and replace it with a new system. And I feel like that has worked, you know, in history when you can create a new system and replace it with the new system. But a lot of times the, the easiest way to get something done is to work within the system, try to improve it, and try to find ways to, um, create a better world for everyone with the systems that already exist. So I’m, I’m very much like an entrepreneur, I guess in that sense. I’m not trying to come with a new way that the world shop, right. I’m just trying to improve the things that already exist. So. Well,
It also sounds like you’re doing both, right? Like if you work with businesses and you, like, you work on helping them with like lead gen and content and things of that nature, like you’re working within the existing systems, um, uh, like the, the existing systems of how the search engines operate, et cetera, and like working in compliance with the system. And at the same time though, you’ve also created your own platform for helping people to create sales in a new way. So yeah, it kind of sounds like you’re doing both.
Yeah. Yeah. That’s, that’s a good observation. I mean, it’s always good to, to reflect on what we’re working on and, and see if it’s going in the right direction. But, um, as of any kind of innovative thing, uh, it’s like to what degree is it also achievable? And I think when you are stubborn like me, and you don’t want to go out and raise money, uh, the things that are achievable are the things that generate revenue quickly. Um, one day I might raise money, but I just, I just like the whole bootstrap route. It seems a little bit more achievable for my intents and purposes. So,
Yeah, no, it’s definitely, um, uh, in certain respects a more difficult route, right. To bootstrap things. Yeah. And it’s like all you, and like, well, in my case, all me, you know, <laugh>, like, uh, uh, either it’s like, no one’s gonna help me make payroll. Um, right.
<laugh>, right? No one, no one. It would be nice to have a million dollars in the bank, you know, just a million dollars to just like, only just dry powder, you know, just to use for anything. Like in addition to your operating cash flows, just a million extra bucks sitting there, it would solve a lot of problems. And I feel like a lot of cushion.
Yeah, a lot of cushion. I mean, I feel like you have to have, uh, cut your teeth for a while, bootstrapped to eventually know how to use that money the right way. And I mean, I’m, I mean, shoot, like again, we’re just entering our sixth year. I’m just now for the first time with my business partner actually creating hard budgets with like, categories and, you know, doing all that jazz. And we’re just too big now as a company to where we can’t just yolo it, you know, we can’t just wing it. I mean, you have to actually have these things planned out. And so, but it took me like five and a half years to actually take the time to go do that. Um, but it’s gonna help us grow, and it’s like one of these infrastructural things you need. So,
Yeah. No, and totally. And, and so and then kind of like, like once you get to that phase, what do you think would be next? Like, what would be beyond that?
You mean for, uh, bigger problems to try to solve? Right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. Well, I do think, I always think about it as, you know, investors always look at the terminal value of something. Um, and I think the terminal value of this business is probably, I honestly think this company could grow to like a hundred million dollars a year in revenue. I don’t think it’s a billion dollar company, but I, I think it’s a hundred million dollar company. And I would like to get to that point, which might take five to 10 years. Um, but after that point, I would love to get into, uh, health tech. I’d love to get into climate tech and also just like community design, because I feel we, we live in such a interesting time period where people can’t afford to buy homes. I’m a millennial, like borderline millennial, gen Z, and nobody who I know who’s a Gen Z, and a lot of millennials too, just can’t afford to buy homes.
Um, so you’re living in this environment where all these people are just renting forever. Um, and it’s actually in some ways cheaper to rent right now than to buy. But it would be cool to design communities where you actually feel a sense of ownership in that community or, or literally have a sense of ownership in that community. So there’s a couple different areas, but I think it always just centers around suffering. I think every person who lives in the United States to some, or, or is that has the privilege of being here, should want to try to find some ways to reduce suffering in the world. Uh, it’s a tangible thing we can all agree on. So we might as well try to fix it to some extent, you know, whether it’s homelessness or, uh, food insecurity. Um, those are big problems that sometimes are just of our own making. Like I think we actually could solve both those issues if we found the right system to solve it, um, and or the right technology that could potentially help us solve it. So those are sort of the next ones, but those are billion dollar ideas, right? These, this one’s kind of like a hundred million dollar idea. I think it can get to that size, but the next one would be a moonshot. You know, how do you build like a billion dollar company, you know, or a hundred billion dollar company, right? That’d be sweet.
Yeah, no, absolutely. Um, cool. Well, I mean, let’s talk a little bit about what you, what you have been building, uh, recently. So you’ve, you’ve got this software platform, um, that, um, that had a thousand businesses used to date. And like you’ve, um, you’re kind of, um, finishing up the third version of it now. So kind of like, what, what is that that you built and kind of what made you decide to build that instead of something else?
Yeah. Well, again, it’s kind of like, I think if it as like the, uh, anti VC route, um, I, I think when, when you ask, you know, why did I decide to build it? I think of it kind of like the anti VC route, essentially, where it’s, if you think about the way VCs invest in companies, uh, or angel investors, it’s with the assumption that you front load them with so much capital to give them what’s necessary to reach escape velocity and build this huge company. But because you’re putting so much intense pressure on them, and because it is one of the only ways really to make these companies succeed, uh, with a high enough rate to build a whole LP firm around it and investment fund around it, you have front load them with a lot of capital. But that also means that a lot of these companies fail because you’re putting them under so much intense pressure to grow that they just physically cannot actually make it happen in such a short period of time.
So they almost have to constrain them to building ideas quickly that may not even be fully tested with a real use case, but if they can just whip through those, they’ll get one out of a hundred to succeed or something like really succeed. Um, the reason I built the business and the software that we have, the way we did, it’s ’cause I don’t like that model for myself. I, I want, if I’m gonna do something, I want to know, there’s a pretty high chance it’s gonna succeed. Um, so the agency does services for our clients, whether that’s development or marketing or whatever, and then we build software to help us make more money either for our clients or just for ourselves. And that software then gets licensed to everybody as part of the subscription, and we just add more and more features to the software that’s based on something we’re actually doing for ourselves.
So the things you’ll find when you go into the software right now, and then the new features with like the AI and the enhanced dashboards and everything are actually being rolled out this week. So I’m really excited for that. But what you’ll find right now when you go into the software is basically a lead generation tracking tool. It sounds boring, but it’s actually a huge problem for our internal operations. So anyone who gets a lot of leads needs to figure out a better way to track them. You could do it through a CRM, but there are some limitations to that. Like, for example, let’s say you have a lot of people sending you leads from a lot of different places. Well, they don’t all have access to your CRM, so what do you, what happens if you need them to report on the status of those leads, you’re gonna have to pay for all of their accounts inside your CRM that adds up.
And so for us, we’re like, well, we need a layer before that to help get those leads, then get sorted and tracked and all this stuff beforehand. So it’s a lead tracking tool. And where the AI part comes in is we’re like, well, what if we could integrate with Stripe and integrate with Calendly and then also use third party data, like whether it’s from LinkedIn or other sorts of places to enhance the leads that are coming through the funnel and give us more insight into who these people are. Well, if you did that, then you could create, and this is what we’re doing right now, is you could create essentially lead scoring automatically based on many different parameters. So all you would’ve to do is plug your Stripe account into the software, plug your, if you use Calendly, which a lot of people do for booking meetings through the software, you could then use this software to track your leads and also determine how good they are, how good your lead scores are, and also how much you’re projected to sell this month, next month, the following month, which is extremely valuable for my company.
So my pitch I always say to people is like, look, this is working for us. It’s making us money. I’m very confident it will for you too, but that’s the pitch. It’s like, it’s not really, um, oh, we’re gonna build this huge world changing business. It’s like, if I could just make you a thousand dollars a month and our service costs $97 a month, then I, I feel confident selling you that. Right? Obviously if I made you more than that, that’s amazing, but it’s like that’s, it’s a very simple pitch. It’s very contained, and there’s really not a whole lot going on. Um, it’s just finding a way to make more money from every single lead that comes through your pipeline. And that’s, with ai,
It’s not, it’s not a massive value, but it’s clear value, right? Like you said, it’s not like, it’s not like you’re saying, I’m, I’m gonna give you a, benefit that’s worth a hundred thousand dollars a month. Um, it’s like, it’s gonna be worth a thousand dollars a month and that’s clear. So I’ll charge 97 for it. Right?
Well, that’s the best part about having a company that already is scaled, right? Because when you launch a software product, people that are launching their own products and going through VC funds or angel investors, they love when they can have somebody be like the test pilot for their software. And the bigger the company is, the more revenue it’s making, the more data you can pull in, right? So if you have a company that’s doing, you know, a large amount of revenue, you can then take all those data points and just feed it into the software. Plus you have complete control over that. That’s the other big thing because with the, with the test pilot company or whoever you’re working with your, in your beta, they a may not want to give you all that information, and B, they may not have the capability to get you the information you need and the time you need it.
And so if you have a system that you control, then you can say, yeah, all that information going right into the software, we’re gonna enhance the software and iterate on it. And we have this live thing, which is pumping information into the software 24 7, which is, is, is a, is a huge value add, um, for, for our business. So I, that’s how I look at it. That’s how I look at the product. And I think there are some big moonshot ideas that can be made with it. And I think over time, through different versions, it can get bigger and bigger. But the third version is really specific, you know? Yeah. Like Loom just got acquired for $975 billion. They do basically one thing, right?
Yeah. Loom loom.com.
Well, you’re not billion, right?
Yeah. I thought I heard a million. I’m like, uh, that’s a no
<laugh>, that’s no. Yeah, they sold, they sold for Yeah, less than a less than a million or less than a billion. Less than a billion. Right?
Right. Got it. Basically
A billion. Um, and cash, that is one thing really well, which is they record stuff, you know? So like the, the simpler I can make it, like the, the software literally just has about two or three screens. There’s only like two or three things you see, but I’m focusing on making it extremely fast, extremely easy to use, and extremely simple.
Yeah. I think I’m spotting a pattern here that I think that you like to have the moonshot ideas, but find some incremental steps towards it and then work on those.
Yeah, I think, I think it’s because when you look at successful entrepreneurs who are like billionaires, right? There’s a lot of, um, what do they call it? Survivorship bias, I think is the word, where they say, do these things like go raise money, go do this, go do that, and you’ll be like me, right? But then once you start diving into the statistics, that’s not actually what happens. Because if your whole goal is to increase the probability of success, if you did exactly what they did, you actually would decrease your probability of success because there’s thousand other people or 10,000 of the people who did exactly what they did and failed, right? So I’m always looking at it as like, in every endeavor I’m aiming for what is the highest probability of success, and then also the highest, uh, outcome. And if I can get to that level mm-hmm, <affirmative>, then I’ll go to the next level after that point. But let’s get to that level first and then go to the next level where, where’s that clear next goal, right? And then the next goal after that, you know?
Right, right. And I guess that’s a way to be more scientific about it, because, um, I think people in general confuse correlation with causation, right? And so, like, like this is, this is all the things that I did. I, you know, I I kind of, um, fell out my front window and uh, and then I met this person that led me to the vc, and then therefore that’s necessary for success. Like, no, that’s just, it’s correlated it all, it happened that way, but it’s not necessarily what caused your success, right? So if you, I guess you go stepwise, you can kind of really see more scientifically what, what led to it.
It’s true. It’s true. It’s, um, it’s, we’re, and, and I think, you know, I think my opinion may not have been as popular, uh, in the last 10 years, but I think it will become more popular in the next five because I think capital will be more constrained. More people will be looking at opportunities to invest in private equity as opposed to VC and, um, angel investment, like moonshot ideas. And I think this idea will actually return more capital to investors. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, which is, you know, better for the investors. So I think it was not as popular when you had so much free money flying around. But in a, in an environment where all those businesses have failed or so many of them have failed or gone to zero, uh, this is one that’s still standing. Like no matter what era you’re in, it still produces something valuable. Even if it’s not at the peak in every cycle, it’s, uh, always incrementally going up, you know?
Yep, absolutely. And so you love, um, um, kind of tracking these trends and talking about them. So I, I think, you know, like one of the things you, you enjoy doing is creating content, um Yep. To kind of, um, AI and developing tech. And so yeah, I mean, just like, what are some of the things you do with that and like what, like what do you think would be helpful for people to know about creating content for, for there in their area? Yeah,
So there’s a couple things. Um, creating content you need to get outta your head, uh, how difficult it is. And that was something that I struggled with, uh, because for a while there I was just overthinking it, like, you know, what is it, what, what do I need to do to go viral? Like I’ve gotta make this amazing video. Um, so you gotta remove that, uh, fear of having it be perfect. So that’s the first thing. The second thing is, um, it’s a system just like any other system. So this is something that I has given me a lot more confidence going into now my, like second year really fully doing content. ’cause it’s only been a little bit, like I’ve only really pushed content out the last two years heavily. Um, but this is going into my like, full, full second year. And what I’ve kind of learned is that, um, I already have these systems that work for growing my business and they all have standard operating procedures and everyone follows like the same thing.
And all the analytics are very clearly tracked. For some reason I just wasn’t thinking of social media as the same kind of system. I was just thinking of it as this, you know, thing you do. But it really is just like any other system, you know, I mean, you get, you have everything tracked. You build up all the systems for your team to replicate every day and you gain momentum by putting out content on a consistent basis. You get people on your team to hold you accountable. ’cause I’m pretty, I’m a pretty inconsistent person. I like to go and like, you know, energy spurts and sometimes I get really behind on stuff ’cause I just procrastinate. But being consistent is not my mo. So having people keep you consistent is really important. And I think if you think of it like it’s any other system.
And then the third thing is just make content that you find really fun or interesting. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I’ve noticed that you, from interviewing a lot of people, ’cause I’ve interviewed now like over 300 people. Um, I’ve just learned that they can pretty much get their audience to do anything if they’re putting out a lot of good, valuable content. So if, even if you sell something completely random, you can get ’em to buy it at a really high rate if you put out a lot of valuable content beforehand. And so for me, like talking about tech and innovation is kind of related to the services I sell, but more importantly it is building an audience of people that are the purchasers of my services. Even if they’re not directly watching content about my services. So they might be watching content about like, AI and they might not have any business related ai, but they might be a business owner who’s concerned about the changes that AI might have in the world.
In that case, I could probably drive them from there to a community talking about ai. And then eventually it’s, you have a business, here’s how you can benefit from these implementation practices in your business or these services that use ai. And so if you do something that you really enjoy, then you’ll never get bored, which is a really key piece. ’cause I also get very bored easily. And so you have to do something that really excites you and you can talk about forever. And for me, that’s tech, that’s news, that’s content. You know, I’ll hear like an idea of something. I’ll just have a conversation with someone and they’ll be like, oh, did you hear about this new feature, this new, uh, tool? And then I’ll like instantly go and create a video about it. ’cause it’s so fun. It’s fresh in my mind. And I’m like, I can also use that as part of the story. ’cause I could say, Hey, my friend mentioned to me this new tool, like I had to make a video about it to you for you. So I think, you know, keeping those things in mind can make it very consistent and scalable.
Yep. Um, cool. And, and I, and I think that what fits into that is, um, is that you’ve been, well first of all, you’ve been doing all kinds of traditional software development for a very long time and you’ve also been using tools for, for no code, um, software development for a while. And so like any tech that you’re excited about that you’re into, like you make videos and you put out content on it and like that’s something that’s actually gathered attention for for you recently, right? It’s like from, from having put out that content about something that you are into, um, it’s been picked up. I say a little more about that.
Yeah, I mean it has, the podcast for us has had the most traction. Um, I have had some videos pick up steam, but I think the, uh, the biggest thing is anytime I have a growth curve with my content and I’m putting out a lot of content around no-code or ai, I’ve kind of failed to stay consistent. And so I’ll have this momentum and then I’ll get distracted for like two weeks and then it’ll die down. So now everything’s really starting to compound because I have multiple people on my team who hold me accountable to making sure that it’s done. And the best way to hold yourself accountable is to pay somebody, uh, for something. ’cause then you feel bad if you’re not actually doing it yourself. So I’ll pay people to help me with my social media and then that makes me feel more, uh, committed to getting it done.
Um, so yeah, I mean the stuff that’s done really well and you know, kind of in compounding is around no-code, specifically bubble.io. Um, it’s a really cool platform. They’ve been working on it for the last 11 years, like just that software company, but only in the last few years, like two years has it actually taken off and, um, become this huge global sensation. And they are actually introducing some features here in the next um, year that will allow people to talk or type what they want their app to be. And then it will actually create the app, uh, using this no-code platform. And unlike, um, chatGPT where you can do that, but it produces code and then that code has to go into a, you an actual like, uh, system for that code to be displayed or to use it with Bubble. You could tell it what you want and then you could have a really easy to use interface that doesn’t require coding to then drag and drop and move things around.
And so if you follow this like, you know, train of thinking, uh, it’s pretty amazing what’s possible. I mean, you could instantly create apps that do amazing things and come pre-configured by just texting what you want. You don’t even have to know how to code or do anything. And so there’s a huge movement and the cost of development is dramatically being reduced. I mean like 10, 20 times. And so it’s almost like, um, when you had telecom and the cost of communication was dropping so rapidly that consumers haven’t adapted to it yet. It’s actually an enormous opportunity for software development firms because software development firms can now offer their services to build an app for a fifth of the cost of what they were selling before and still make a 70, 80% margin because it does take time to learn how to do bubble and to like learn it fully.
But the time for that developer to make the product has dropped so much. So you can charge less, but still make a lot of money and get a way more demand from customers because the price is a fifth or a half of what they were paying. So it’s the same kind of revolution where basically the companies haven’t caught on yet and they have no alternatives because there aren’t that many good developers on the no-code side. So they have nowhere really to go and they want apps for cheaper ’cause they don’t need to pay a hundred thousand dollars for a custom app or 200 or 400 or whatever it is. So they only have a few options. And then the people who can deliver it can still make a really good profit, even with a lower cost. And so that’s kind of like the same groundbreaking revolution that happened in telecom and other industries.
Yep. Very cool. It’s cool to notice the, the trends and see the, see the parallels and, and kind of try to guess where it’s headed next. Yeah. Um, and uh, yeah, if people wanna learn more about you or get in contact with you, how they go about doing so
They could go to twiz.io, T as in Tom, W as in whale, I as in igloos, Z as in zebra dot I O. And when they’re there they can click on resources in the top left corner. We put out a ton of content every month about all these cool things, things with AI and and tech. But if they wanna sign up for the software, just click on sign up in the top right corner and you can sign up for free for 30 days and see how to use it. And I hope you enjoy it. It’s been, uh, about two years we’ve been working on it and um, the last eight months working on this new version. So we’re really hoping this version can hit scale and become a really, uh, big product and we hope that you enjoy it. So.
Okay. Great. Well thank you so much Lucas. I really appreciate you taking the time to be on this podcast.
Thank you. I appreciate it Rich.
Thanks for listening to Innovations and Breakthroughs with your host Rich Goldstein. Be sure to click subscribe, check us out on the web at innovationsandbreakthroughs.com and we’ll see you next time.