The Miracle of Intellectual Property (IP)

Intro (00:09):
Welcome to innovations and breakthroughs with your host, Rich Goldstein, talking about the evolutionary, the revolutionary, the inspiration and the perspiration and those aha that change everything. And now here’s your host, Rich Goldstein,

Rich (00:33):
Rich Goldstein here, host of the innovations and breakthroughs podcast where I feature top leaders in the path they took to create change. Past guests include Joe Polish, Roland Frazier, and Rick Zari. This episode is brought to you by my company, Goldstein pat law, where we help you to protect your ideas and products we’ve advised and obtained patents for thousands of companies over the past 27 years. So if you’re a company that has software product or a design, you wanna protect it, go to Goldstein, pat law.com, where there are amazing free resource is for learning about the patent process. And you can email my team at welcome Goldstein, pc.com to explore if it’s match to work together. You could also also check out the book I wrote for the American bar association that explains in plain in English, how patents work it’s called the ABA consumer guide to obtaining a pad I have with me here today and Glasgow, George Janan Glasgow.

Rich (01:25):
George has built a career from engineering to patent law and investing by transforming ideas into assets and also connecting innovators to the resources that they need to make a positive impact. She has been recognized worldwide for her expertise in intellectual property. She’s spoken internationally, including presenting before the United nations, and also as a congressional advisor serving on the Senate small business committee. She’s also created a software platform called patent forecast that provides IP related analytics tools. Her book, the IP miracle is launching practically as we speak with a release date of February 24th, 2022. I’m very pleased to welcome here today. Glasgow, George. Welcome.

JiNan (02:11):
Thank you Rich. It’s my pleasure. It’s good to meet you and be on your, on your show. Thanks.

Rich (02:16):
Absolutely. And, and so you are the first IP attorney I’ve had on my podcast. I think we have about 90 episodes now. And, and you are the, a first of my colleagues that I’ve had come up here to kind of, um, share the, um, share the stage with me and, and really, I, I think one of the reasons why two reasons, number one, I’m excited about your book. Uh, and number two is I love your philosophy. I love your philosophy about using IP to create assets or turning ideas, IP assets. So I, I’m gonna wanna talk, talk quite a bit about that first. I wanna know a bit about your background kind of how it got started and how you got into IP.

JiNan (02:55):
Oh, sure. And thanks so much. Um, I appreciate it. Um, I always tell people I’m a recovered engineer. I had that first experience in engineering, creating new products, um, and doing research and development. Uh, I think I kind of got my, my start a little earlier than that. My undergraduate research was with the NC state university in NASA Mars mission research center. So I always dreamed about going to space and, um, you know, it does take a long time sometimes to make that positive impact, but what did we find out what last year? Finally, we landed on Mars with the perseverance Rover. I’d like to think some of my 3d composite research made it the there and made it possible, but I love creating things. And after working as an engineer, I thought I wanted to expand, uh, my reach in technology and science and the best way to do that was patent law. So still creating, but more or less helping other people, especially entrepreneurs and innovation companies transform their ideas into reality. And then into assets that they actually use in their business, multiply the business value. And, and for many of them help them exit, help them be acquired

Rich (04:14):
Yeah. And help them exit, um, more profitably too, through those assets. Exactly. So where, where do you think businesses should start when they’re thinking, when they realize like, Hey, an IP portfolio would be awesome, we’ve seen other people really capitalize on their IP portfolios. Like what do you think is a good, good way for them to start, um, toward building that

JiNan (04:40):
You, yeah. Fair question. I, I think the first place you always start is inventory. What you have. I mean, uh, most of the time things, uh, are in people’s heads and they walk out the door every day. So if all of your intellectual property is really still in your employees or contractors brains, you have no idea what you have. You have no idea what your assets are and you’re, they’re leaking out the doors. So the best thing is to inventory and start to engage with everybody on your team and your company to understand what really makes us unique, that unique value proposition, everything should be connected to that. What, what makes us unique and different and differentiated from competition in, so the first step always to inventory and then identify what they think is unique and valuable. What’s connected to where you want to be.

JiNan (05:31):
Obviously if it’s already in the market, you can’t cover that. But, um, but looking forward, product roadmaps, what’s coming, what’s gonna be your advantage capture that the second step that’s pretty unique. Uh, I think to our firm, maybe it’s common to yours as well is data. So we always do patentability research and analysis because how do you compare? You need that context. And so data should drive your decision making. Don’t just file patents. Those are worth nothing. Most of the time, you really have to have a strategy and understand where you are, where you’re going and who’s around you and differentiate from that.

Rich (06:09):
Yeah, that’s amazing. I love that. And, and I think that, um, I mean, a lot of times I like to talk about, um, is imagining a ven diagram where you’ve got, what about your product is patentable? And then what about your product is that is marketable. And then looking for the overlap between the two where the thing that makes it, when you have something that makes it patentable or differentiates it from a patentable standpoint, all also sets you apart in the marketplace. And is the thing that the market is looking for. That’s when you have something to focus on.

JiNan (06:43):
Absolutely. I always say just because it’s patentable doesn’t mean it will be profitable. You have to know how you will use the asset in your business. And if you aren’t gonna use it directly tied to goods and services that you want to produce, that’s the number one way to get return on that investment in creating the patent assets is to enjoy exclusive rights. Then if you think you’re gonna license, you almost have to think beyond that and look at alternatives and how people might design around you. If you’re gonna have something worth licensing, then the, the other company kind of has to license it. Right? So you have to think about that when you create it, create to enforce, even if you don’t want to have to go to court in the

Rich (07:24):
Future. Exactly. I mean, what I like to tell people is that like, if you’re gonna license something, um, it’s not enough that, that, um, the person who license it from you, the entity that license it from you is inspired by what a cool idea it is. You have to have ownership of the thing that they have to do to follow that inspiration. If they’re inspired by it and then see a different solution that that’s not protected by you, then there’s no reason to license it. So it’s like, you need to be able to have leverage over the situation by protecting the thing that’s not only cool and inspir about it, but also kind of the only solution that makes sense.

JiNan (08:04):
Yeah, absolutely. You know, one thing I love about using the data as well is it inspires our clients to stimulate more innovation and thinking, right? Because you can only invent from what you know, and the more you read, the more you see the more know. So that’s one reason we use our iPad and forecast software to literally show people everything that’s around them and stimulate thinking, well, could we incorporate this? Is it, is it helpful to have another component, different functionality? What’s an alternative that we could use that we haven’t thought of. And we, we tend to find that once we give them a way to see more quickly, then they invent more. Um, and then that makes a more robust filing, a higher quality patent. Um, so it’s kind of fun to take the heart of their invention and stimulate more thinking around it. It’s, uh, we find that people love it and it even helps them have a more, uh, robust product roadmap going forward. So, um, it’s a fun exercise. Yeah.

Rich (09:08):
Yeah, absolutely. And I’m glad you mentioned the software. I was actually going to segue to that next. Uh, so, so you can created software to help give you this type of data. And, um, so tell me a bit about the software and, and kind of what, you know, what led you to develop it, what it was like to develop that from concept to bringing it out into the world and, and kind of like what, you know, what it accomplishes.

JiNan (09:33):
Sure. And, uh, I’m gonna gonna blame it on that old engineering self. Again, when I first launched in pat my patent practice in the late nineties, I thought, okay, I wanna do research analysis. Okay. I’m so old rich that like when I worked at the patent office, we had to manually search patents, paper copies of things in stacks, in a room that they called drawers shoes. It was just crazy situation. It was optional to search online and the internet didn’t have free pad research online. You had to go physically to look at microfilm and micro fi. So it was kind of a, a painful process, but by the early 2000 2002 and one, all of that opened up and the patent office said, oh, here’s the internet. Let’s make the data available. And I thought, why can’t I research this, uh, easily in a way that lets me look at the data from a few different perspectives.

JiNan (10:30):
And I tried every software that was on the market, nothing worked the way I wanted. So I thought, well, I’m here in Raleigh Durham research, triangle park, North Carolina. I’ll just hire somebody to build what I want. And so I launched a company called Neo patents in the early two thousands. And we built our own software based on evolutionary biology principles, applied to patents. Literally we wanted to see how patents and, uh, uh, in different areas were evolving. What was the trajectory of invention? And, uh, the visualization was really helpful. Um, it turns out that while companies like to use software, and that was a great experience. And I learned a lot, um, most of the time they want the answer, we’re in a Google world now, right. You ask, uh, ask Google, you ask Siri, you ask gala Alexa, and you just want the answer. So, um, patent forecast software is a bit of an evolution. We have machine learning, some AI, but the whole thing is like, it’s weather, it’s changing all the time. So you need to be able to see what’s happening in, in real time for patents that’s on a weekly basis. So that was birthing software and it was painful. I’m gonna tell you whatever developers tell you it’s gonna take in terms of software, double it, at least double it, maybe triple it. It always takes longer a little bit painful, but good.

Rich (11:52):
Yep, absolutely. And, and so, and, and who uses the software currently? Is it, you know, law firms, corporations? Uh,

JiNan (11:59):
Yeah. It’s um, actually the it’s a SaaS offering now. So companies and, uh, corporations, attorneys don’t even need to run their own searches. We create sectors that they can just explore. So, um, if you want to learn about what’s happening with NFTs, we have an NFT sector, we have a several cannabis sectors. We have a robotics and collaborative robot sector. Um, so if you can think of a sector, we create that. So companies just subscribe to the sec sector. They want, you know, Jim Gaffigan has a, has a, that says the only photos we’re interested in are the ones we’re in. So we like to create these, uh, snapshots, these sectors that surround an area of interest for you, the company, or the attorney, your clients. And so you just get to explore and they evolve every week. It’s like whether we keep your weather app updated for bads.

Rich (12:57):
Absolutely. Um, so, um, now I mean, this, this is a, this is a difficult question because, um, like some questions like will focus you on one particular thing. Like, okay, here’s the thing I typically ask my guests about the value that they’ve seen IP play in building their business and for you it’s, if I was to ask that question, it would be extremely difficult. Cause you can, you could probably think of a thousand different examples of, of how IP has helped, um, business. But I’m, I’m just wondering if we were going to, to narrow down on a few, like kind of ways in which you’ve seen IP just really help someone connect the dots from where they are to success, where gaining the IP is the reason why they were able to close the deal and, um, or get the product, um, move forward or get the investors, um, or where, um, IP, um, um, or where, um, having the IP meant, uh, a, a much larger exit than they would’ve possibly achieved. So just with a, a little bit of guidance there, I’m just wondering where your brain goes to what, yeah,

JiNan (14:15):
Sure. I mean, one of my favorite examples, I don’t know if I can say the company name, uh, here. So I’ll just sort of describe it, a company in the high tech area that we helped from cradle to exit from the concept all the way through. And it was amazing to see how much use and leverage the patents provided to that client. From the beginning at the I’ll tell the story at the start, the founder came to me and said, I want to file a patent. And I asked, well, tell me about it. And then I always wanted to learn about the business. What, what’s your plan for the business? It was a startup. Um, once we put the context surround it, it became clear. It wasn’t one patent. It was more like a dozen patent filings, right? And the pushback of course, that can come well, I’m a startup.

JiNan (15:04):
Well, I’m trying to raise capital. So we, uh, had the conversation about go do your invest. Do they want to see one patent or five patents or 12 patents more? Isn’t always better. Right? But strategic high quality assets help transform that company from a pure startup, low valuation, single digit millions to gaining several rounds of funding. So they used it to improve the Valu over time. As it grew with their business, they used the IPS as the patents to attract new tech talent. It was evidence or proof of we’re innovative. They used the patents to attract key board members who were nationally recognized. They used the patents for obtaining obviously additional rounds of finance. They used the patents for exclusive securing exclusive deals with large companies to get into their supply chain because they were the sole source. And then they used the patents for non dilutive financing.

JiNan (16:10):
Uh, the key part, the core part of their portfolio that we developed initially was valued by a major funding source, um, at 15 million of non dilutive capital secured only by the patents. And then of course, because of the IP position, coupled with the business, they were able to attract the attention of a major, um, global 100 company and be acquired at a, at a better valuation than they would’ve had without any E I P certainly by far. And none of it would’ve happened. So I love that story in particular because it was from founding to exit and the, the path were used very effectively all the way through. They did have to a address, some competitive activity, no lawsuits in there in terms of enforcement, but we do try to keep our clients outta court, but, uh, again, very effective use from the beginning all the way to the end. And, um, and it’s a serial entrepreneur who’s off to another company. So a, a good, a good story fairytale from beginning to end, nothing evil, except maybe the lender. Just kidding

Rich (17:25):
That. That’s awesome. That’s, that’s kind of like an IP miracle and that’s a really, really lousy segue, but that

JiNan (17:32):
Would be a great title for a book

Rich (17:34):
That would be a great title for a book. Yeah. So full about

JiNan (17:38):
The book full title.

Rich (17:39):
Let’s talk about the book, title, IP miracle that, um, that is coming out on February 24th, the same time that this episode is launching. So, so tell me about the book.

JiNan (17:48):
Thank you. Perfect timing. Well, the subtitle important also it’s four entrepreneurs and innovative companies. It’s not a how to write patents book. It’s on a DIY patents book. It’s how to transform ideas into assets that multiply your business value, right. It’s really multiplying your business overall, actually. Um, yeah, the, the idea was to make sure that we are talking with business leaders, entrepreneurs, serial entrepreneurs, even startups, to understand how important everything that makes their business unique can be if they transform it into an IP asset, not everything should be patented of course, but helps them guide their own thinking through how do I assess it? What do I get out of it? I debunk a lot of myths, for example, many, uh, tech companies, as you know, they think software is not patentable anymore. Software patents are dead. Not so obviously all of, of the big tech is filing at higher rates than they ever have in history. And they buy companies very often for their patent position. So it’s meant really to help you understand, as an entrepreneur innovator, why do you need to think about intellectual property? How do you think about it? What to do and what not to do parti do not do it yourself, do not DIY,

Rich (19:14):
Right. Absolutely. That’s a very important message right there. And, and so, um, tell me about the process. So this was your first book. So what was the process like of, of, of getting this together, writing your first book?

JiNan (19:29):
Uh, difficult. I’m a fir this is my first book. First time author. I, um, started trying to write everything down myself and I found that, uh, having a different point of view, getting another perspective on how to tell the story for this audience in a way that was easy to consume and understand, and not too geeky, not to legalese, but something that made it really more about the assets and business. And then I just had to commit the time it’s sort of that just do it as some of your other guests, talk about, take some action on it. Um, and I set up a schedule and committed to that writing every week and talking through it. Um, and then here we are ready to log much.

Rich (20:12):
That’s amazing. Uh, and I’m, I’m looking forward to reading it. I mean, I, I, I love the idea of it. Um, I’d love to hear what you have to say about it and you know, one other topic I wanted to ask you about, which is educating. I know you’re passionate about educating, um, people and working with young people and you have various initiatives going on in that regard. So tell me a bit about that.

JiNan (20:36):
I do thanks so much. It’s really our mission at Neo. I P my law practice to make sure we connect innovators to the resources they need. And sometimes that’s other people and sometimes it’s information, sometimes it’s funding. Um, but in particular, I’ve enjoyed a lot working with students. I see, uh, our youth, the young people from high school and, uh, college and graduate schools as really being our key to inventive and innovative solutions here in the United States and global. So I’ve been dedicating more time over the last five years, pre COVID. And even during COVID to volunteer, to work with students, young entrepreneurs who believe they have IP intellectual property, they believe they may have some unique invention. So really giving them an opportunity to talk with an attorney and understand how to that even donating provisional patent applications, to students who win pitch competitions to help them get their companies launched and get it off the ground without worrying about the cost of it. And so that’s been a real joy working with my Alma mater NC state university here in North Carolina. I spoke yesterday at duke university. Um, it’s, uh, an high point university, which is very much about experiential learning. So that experience for students to set an appointment, be prepared, be organized, have questions for a lawyer and watch the time, right. Keep it, keep it, uh, keep it quick and concise. Uh, it’s a good experience for them. So they’re leaving college, uh, having had all that under their belt as experience. I love it.

Rich (22:15):
Yeah, no, I love it too. That’s amazing. It’s like you’re, you’re training people how to be good clients, um, how to gain value from their IP and, and really how to, how to make the most out of what they create, like how to effectively interface with the system to, to make the most out of it and gain the, the best advantage.

JiNan (22:37):
Absolutely. And you don’t know what you don’t know. Right? One of the things we see as a trend across universities are these pitch competitions and business plan competitions. And the students don’t realize is some of the issues that come up in that, like it’s a publication, uh, when they’re telling the world, uh, about their invention and they haven’t filed a patent application. So maybe they start that proverbial clock ticking in the United States, the grace period, or the issues of doing a project with other students where you don’t have company and there’s no operating agreement or assignment agreement who owns it when everybody splits up, right? Those are really difficult things to navigate, but a lot of people have the misconception as you know, rich that you can file patents later after you’re making money after you’ve raised capital and you can’t go back and fix, it’s one of those things that can be possibly fatal for early stage companies. So we wanna try to prevent it and be proactive.

Rich (23:38):
Absolutely. And it, and it’s, and it’s, it’s kind of funny in the sense that like, when I give, um, talk about patents to entrepreneurs, often I will tell them about those rules. The one year rule, the one year grace period or ways in which you can lose the rights to an invention. I’ll give examples of clients that have come, come to me two years after launching a product. And I tell ’em it’s too late. And they say, well, how could I have possibly known that? You know? And, and I often think, and one of the things I say about it is like, well, unfortunately there’s no course in high school about patents, where if there’s one thing that you, you should have learned in school about patents is that you need to do them. And that if you don’t do them in time that they, you will lose the right to do it, but here you are actually telling high school students, uh, that, you know, that piece of information that could save them someday. So it’s kind of, I find that kind of funny as I often described it as like, well, if you were to learn anything in high school about patents, this is what it should be, uh, right on.

JiNan (24:43):
I think we should teach them about contracts, contracts, just basics of law would be great to see in high schools because you know what, you hit that 18 year old point, you are an adult and you can find yourself in contract. I, I do think our student young people need to know that, take it seriously for sure.

Rich (25:02):
Absolutely. Um, and, uh, I, I think that’s awesome. And, uh, and by the way, where will I be able to get a copy of your book? Is it going to be on Amazon?

JiNan (25:11):
It will. It’ll be on Amazon here on the 24th of February.

Rich (25:15):
Yes. As, as we speak as our voices emanate out into the world on the release date of this, uh,

JiNan (25:22):
Yeah. Thank you for asking.

Rich (25:24):
Yes. And if people wanna learn more about, you will get in contact with you, how do they go about doing so,

JiNan (25:29):
Um, a good website is through our, our law firm, Neo IP. The website is N E O IP assets, a S E ts.com Neo I P assets.com.

Rich (25:44):
Great. And, and I, and I suppose if they wanna learn more about you as well, they can go to Uman Glasgow, george.com.

JiNan (25:52):
Yes. Thank you. My personal site,

Rich (25:53):
Your personal site. Awesome. Well, uh, Jenan thanks. Thank you so much for taking the time to do this interview. I really appreciate you, and I really appreciate having you on the show.

JiNan (26:03):
Thank you. I appreciate all the work you’re doing. I love the alignment that we have, and you’re doing such great work in pat law. I appreciate you having me on your podcast. Rich. You’re awesome. Thanks.

Rich (26:14):
Yeah, you’re welcome. Thank you. Thank you.

Outro (26:23):
Thanks for listening to innovations and breakthroughs with your host, Rich Goldstein. Be sure to click, subscribe, check us out on the web at innovationsandbreakthroughs.com and we’ll see you next time.