Selling on Walmart with Tim Jordan

Intro (00:09):
Welcome to Innovations and Breakthroughs with your host Rich Goldstein, talking about the evolutionary, the revolutionary, the inspiration and the perspiration and those aha moments that change everything. And now here’s your host, Rich Goldstein.

Rich (00:33):
Rich Goldstein here, hosts of the Innovations and Breakthroughs podcast, where I featured top leaders in the path they took to create change. Past guests include Joe Polish, Roland Frazier, and Mike Calhoun. This episode is brought to you by my company Goldstein Patent Law, where we help you to protect your ideas and products. We’ve advised and obtain patents for thousands of companies over the past 28 years. So if you’re a company that has software or product or design you want protected, go to goldsteinpatentlaw.com where there are amazing free resources for learning about the patent process. And you could email my team at welcome@goldsteinpc.com to explore if it’s a match to work together. You could also check out the book I wrote for the American Bar Association that explains in plain English how patents work. It’s called the ABA Consumer Guide to Obtaining a Patent I have with me here today, my friend Tim Jordan. Uh, Tim is the founder of Private Label Legion, which is a community of sellers and entrepreneurs. He’s also a well-known Amazon seller, co-founder of Carbon Six, and is also a crackerjack consultant to many top service providers within the Amazon and e-com space. Tim has been selling for many years on Amazon and Shopify and is now selling on Walmart, which is going to be a big part of our conversation today. I’m happy to welcome back to the show. My good friend Tim Jordan. Welcome, Tim.

Tim (01:57):
What a warm welcome. Thank you.

Rich (01:59):
Yeah, my pleasure. Absolutely. Uh, and um, so let’s get right to it and let’s talk about Walmart. So, what is the opportunity now with Walmart for people who’ve been selling on Amazon, um, selling Shopify? Like, like where’s the opportunity?

Tim (02:19):
Well, I think the opportunity lies in marketplace in general. Everybody that has a product, everybody that wants to sell something, um, has a couple options. One is to create their own website and one is to use an existing audience, an existing infrastructure. And Amazon really kind of created this marketplace ecosystem that we’re used to. They created a scenario where buyers are coming into the platform where they have the infrastructure, they have the logistics, they have the marketing tools that we can use, and we can essentially sell our products with the momentum that they’ve already built. Well, Amazon has owned that space for a long time and silently, but quickly, Walmart had started to catch up. Now there’s still a ways away when it comes to actual buyers per day or or website visits per day, but Walmart, I think three years ago became the second largest marketplace as far as traffic and purchases in the us and I believe the third in the English speaking language, which is pretty wild.

Tim (03:18):
They surpassed eBay, uh, many years ago. So as we product sellers are looking for an operating to sell, we’re always looking for somewhere else. And Walmart did not do a fantastic job early on. They bought jet.com, I can’t remember, 2016, 17. And they, we now know they kind of stripped some of the infrastructure there, but it was really kind of a hot mess for a number of years. And it’s taken them a while to really hone in on exactly how their marketplace is going to look from the buyer side and from the seller side. And over the past year, it just seems like a constant garage of releases and rollouts and new updates and all sorts of awesome stuff that’s been happening. Remember last year I spoke about Walmart at the Prosper Show in Vegas in March. So that was 2022 and it was a packed room.

Tim (04:02):
It was standing room only cuz everybody was so intrigued. What was happening at Walmart this year we’re at Prosper, um, here in March in 23. And I was talking to agency owners that are representing more than 300 brands on Walmart and all of them are growing massively. I was talking to individual brand owners, solopreneurs that have increased their business’ revenue by 50% just by adding Walmart. So it’s exciting. And I’ve had the privilege to be behind the scenes at Walmart. I’ve worked with several of the different business units there. Got to see some of the up, up and coming stuff before it actually hit. Also was able to be involved in some of the beta testing, kinda kind of new features that were coming out and working with them closely to put out content on how to sell on Walmart. So maybe it’s that I’m excited because I get to see behind the scenes, or maybe it’s because I get to see these agency owners and these brands doing exceptionally well, but I don’t understand why everybody else is not as excited about walmart.com and the opportunities that there are as I am.

Rich (05:02):
Yeah, got it. Um, and, and, and I remember you mentioning one presentation just about the sheer number of distribution centers that they have because of all the stores. And I think at the time Amazon had quite a bit less and they’ve been seeking to catch up. Um, but um, but yeah, I think, I think that was one of the things you were saying makes them a sleeping giant in in e-comm.

Tim (05:26):
Yeah. When we think about one of the abilities that we as sellers have to scale with marketplaces, it’s the infrastructure. We don’t have to stage up our own warehouses. We don’t have to get our own forklifts and warehouse staff. Amazon, FBA essentially did that for us. But those things, because they’re hard for us to build and scale up, are also hard for Amazon to scale and build up. So when the increased demand of e-commerce purchases happened, especially during covid, that was one of the biggest problems Amazon had, is they ran outta warehouse space, they ran outta labor, they just could not scale up as fast physically as they they could digitally. And when you think about Walmart, there is a Walmart store within 10 miles of 90% of the North American population. That is an ungodly high ratio. It’s ridiculous how many Walmart stores there are.

Tim (06:11):
So Walmart owns more square footage, more docks, more ramps, more parking lot space, more trucks, more forklifts, more pallet racks than anybody else in the world. It’s unbelievable. And Walmart has slowly been adapting some of the square footage in their stores to e-commerce fulfillment centers. They even launched a program a couple years ago called Glassdoor, where they took their first, uh, Walmart Supercenter in Texas and turned it 100% into a e-commerce distribution center. So yeah, Walmart has, has been doing that. The other thing that Walmart really, um, really does well is they play well with Google. Now Amazon is a little bit like Apple. They’re kind of a closed box. They want their own chargers, they want their own app store and they want to keep people in the, in the ecosystem. Walmart said, we don’t care. They partnered with Shopify, they partnered with Big Commerce, they partnered with, uh, ship Monk and Ship Station and all these companies as well as they play very well with Google.

Tim (07:08):
I did a case study talking about this sometime last year and I said, you know, if we have a brand and we want that brand to show up, one of the best places that it can show up is obviously in search engines like Google. But getting something to rank is extremely hard. Now, Walmart ranks things quickly. So if I would go to, uh, Google and I type, um, well, let’s say I go to Amazon and I would type men’s underwear. I would get all these different brands, but very few of them would be Hanes. Well, I could take the top one from Haines and put that listing, um, into Google and it wouldn’t really even index, but I could take the same brand name, put it in Google. And in Google shopping, which is the top results, 15 of the top 30 results were all Walmart listings for Haines underwear. So what we know is that Google is heavily prioritizing Walmart listings in organic rank. And that’s gonna be powerful. It is powerful because my brand now gets Walmart’s SEO love when people are Googling specifically for the keywords that I’m trying to index and rank for on Walmart. Uh, it’s like free traffic. And Amazon has never had that ability or that power with Google.

Rich (08:18):
Yeah, that’s interesting. And I, I kind of wonder why that is. And and I know like about Google is one of the things that they’re, they want to do is to provide reliable results. Like if someone is searching for something they want to give them, they want to get them to a solution quickly. And so they look for webpages that are, um, likely to be the thing that the person is looking for. And I imagine it says something about that they trust Walmart in terms of it being the thing, their listings being the thing that someone is looking for or maybe their ability to fulfill or have products nearby or something like that, that that has them say like, this is a a, a good bet for giving the searcher what they’re looking for.

Tim (09:06):
Yeah, agreed.

Rich (09:08):
So, um, in, in terms of, um, selling on on Walmart, for someone who has, um, been selling on Amazon, does well se selling on Amazon, like what are the some of the things that they need to do to adapt themselves or adapt their practices towards selling on on Walmart

Tim (09:28):
Follow Walmart’s guidelines, that’s it. Amazon has always been fairly cryptic about how they rank and how they prioritize and how they consider your listing as far as good or not good to fit their algorithm. Walmart took an opposite approach. They gave us very specific guidelines, very specific examples, not just with what was in the terms of service, but what actually ranked, well, they gave us listing quality scores and tell us, you’re doing great, you’re not doing great. Here’s the things you can improve on. And what a lot of Walmart sellers did early on, or Amazon sellers, let’s say that moved to Walmart is they use these programs or they just copy and pasted listings, bullet points, descriptions, attributes. Walmart hates that because Walmart’s criteria of what is acceptable and preferred is much different. So if you just copy and paste your Amazon attributes into your Walmart listings, you are going to rank very, very poorly.

Tim (10:19):
So the first thing people need to do is understand that these are very different beasts, but Walmart in their seller help center gives exceptionally clear, detailed information on how to make that happen. Second thing that I think, uh, a seller that wants to, or brand owner that wants to migrate and start selling on Walmart needs to do is be patient. Now being able to rank quickly to the first of the page for your keywords is very easy. For most products. It’s like the wild, wild west. Your sales are not going to necessarily be the exact same as Amazon, but give it a little bit of time. It would be like getting on Amazon in 2012, right? It might have been a little bit slow. Why are we doing this? It’s a little bit of an archaic system. But if you had done that and you’d started acquiring the reviews and you’d start acquiring the, the sales volume and revenue, then in 2015 or 16 when it really hit big, you would’ve been stuck in that position.

Tim (11:09):
That’s where you wanna be. And then the third thing I would say is continually, continually learn. There are so many things that are coming out right now about Walmart that are helping us to understand how to sell better, how to sell more, how to be more profitable. And if you aren’t consistently looking for those educational or software or tool or uh, resource opportunities, you’re going to miss out. It was not until just very recently that there was a kind of an all-in-one competitive analysis and keyword research tool and it was really featured heavily at Prosper. It’s called Wally Smarter. It, it really didn’t exist, right? It’s brand new. If you’re not paying attention, you’re not following along with what’s happening in the industry, you’re gonna miss these big opportunities. We spoke to a large agency in LA that manages about 350 Amazon accounts. They had no clue these tools existed. And they said, we have been manually trying to scrape data and for the low cost that this tool is, it’s going to save us hundreds of hours a month in research. If they hadn’t taken the time to invest in learning coming to Prosper, then never would know that existed. So that’s kind of kind of my other third piece of advice is stay on top of things cuz the landscape’s changing fast and you don’t wanna miss something really cool.

Rich (12:22):
Absolutely. Well, I mean, a little, a little Birdie told me that you’re working on some content related to how to sell on Amazon, on on Walmart. And uh, we’ll just leave that as it is and we’ll, we’ll keep an eye out for that in the future.

Tim (12:36):
And I did a case study a year ago. I’ll tell, I’ll tell some of you that if if you’ve watched that, it’s almost obsolete now. Walmart’s changing so fast. But definitely keep an eye out on, uh, on what I’ve got going on on social media. Cause we’re gonna be dropping a lot of Walmart content very soon.

Rich (12:50):
Awesome. Um, okay, cool. Well, um, and, and so Walmart is exciting, but also I I know that, I know that and I noticed at Prosper you’re hanging out with some executives from Alibaba and so, um, there’s another opportunity there with Alibaba. Did you wanna tell me a bit about that?

Tim (13:11):
Yeah, and I can tell you that Alibaba did not like me for a very long time. About two years ago I had another,

Rich (13:17):
You are kind of an acquired taste, Tim,

Tim (13:19):
I’m an acquired taste <laugh>. I was, uh, I’m like a pickle, right? Like <laugh>,

Rich (13:26):
Um, sour at first. And then you’re like, how did I ever live without this <laugh>?

Tim (13:30):
Exactly. So I met with some Alibaba folks a few years ago and they asked my opinion on, you know, me as, as a, as a growing and an established online seller, brand owner, why or why wouldn’t I use Alibaba? And I said, I don’t use Alibaba anymore. And they said, why? And I said, well, cuz I used Alibaba initially, I met some contacts, I had some, a bunch of fake company names on there. It was kind of a mess. And eventually I realized that once I made some few initial contacts, I didn’t necessarily need Alibaba in my life anymore. And there’s a trust issue, right? If anybody could post any listing on there, how do you know who you’re dealing with? And they did not like that. They did not like my comment and I did not hear from them for multiple years. Well, in the past, about nine months or 10 months, I started getting contacted by Alibaba folks.

Tim (14:19):
I later found out that there is a dossier, I think where these notes must have been hidden about Tim’s opinion. And I’ve started making some good connections and really some good friendships and some good, um, professional, you know, had some good professional interactions with a lot of the buyer team specifically at Alibaba. And the buyer team is the team that’s responsible for serving the buyers of Alibaba. That’s us, the sellers, that’s those of us that are on Alibaba looking for a manufacturer supplier. And what they’re trying to do is, is figure out, of course how to increase their footprint in the manufacturing world, largely by bringing in buyers. And of course their revenue model is to sell basically advertising space to their sellers, their manufacturers. And I started having these candid conversations again and this time they were well received and I was able to connect to some higher up individual senior leadership at Alibaba that said, you’re right, we have determined this as well.

Tim (15:16):
What do we do? And I started making suggestions like get involved with communities, learn from communities. And in, um, like the first, the last week of March, first week of April, Alibaba had uh, basically invited a bunch of sellers to these think tank sessions, 15 to 20 sellers in New York and LA to say, tell us what, what we can do to help you. And I thought, this is amazing. They’re starting to show up at trade shows and conferences and learn and interact and meet other people. But the other thing that’s exceptionally cool is they decided that they have so many resources and they have so many connections that they can offer v i p white glove services to, uh, establish businesses. And what this means is they’ll have one-on-one sourcing, they’ll have private sourcing, uh, cons, consultations, they have all these other services that they’re adding into established sellers.

Tim (16:08):
They just don’t have the bandwidth to do it for brand new sellers, but established sellers. And I’ve gone through the program, at least most of it, I have interacted with the team that runs it and spent a lot of time with them, uh, even giving some advice and consulting for them, doing a little bit of advising. And it’s going to be tremendously powerful. I think that there are a lot of established brands that have gotten into a habit of using the same sourcing methods of the same factory and the same shipping companies just cuz it’s comfortable for them. And what they’re gonna be able to do now is if they meet the, the threshold they need to be doing, you know, a certain amount of revenue and they haven’t quite released that yet. But if you, if you watch out for it, they’ll tell you and it’s not that high actually, then they can go in and they can audit all of your transactions, uh, at least your your supply chain transaction, see if they can streamline things for you, see if they can give you advice.

Tim (16:59):
They’re working with partners, um, like Carbon Six will be one of them that offers some exclusive kind of perks and auditing and consulting and things of those nature that are exceptionally powerful for sellers. And it’s interesting because Alibaba’s never done this before. This is brand new. And when we think about global impact on business development for e-commerce sellers and SMBs, Alibaba definitely has a lot of levers in that machine that can be pulled because we all have to find our products somewhere to be able to sell them. And Alibaba is one of the top 20, you know, largest companies in the world. So they have a lot of resources and uh, and now they’re starting to invest those in us as the small and medium sized businesses.

Rich (17:43):
Yeah, and, and uh, what I’ve heard, they’re, they’re looking to educate their customers as well. And so I guess that’s just another example of, um, investing resources in the community as opposed to just being a search engine for products.

Tim (17:57):
Exactly.

Rich (17:59):
Yep. Awesome. And um, and speaking of community and resources and such, so like something else, like just a, a different hat, like putting on a different hat that, that, and you know, you, you wear the expert hat well, and we’ve been talking all about the, uh, Alibaba and Walmart and your subject matter expertise in, in the sales side of it, but part of what’s been kind of sneaking out the side is all the relationships that you have with different people. It’s not just that you are, uh, an observer in the background. You’re someone who’s actually involved with these entities, um, helping to improve the practices for sellers. So, you know, you are, so the, the other hat I’m talking about is you’re naturally a connector, you connect people, you see opportunities, I guess you don’t often talk about it, but you consult with companies that are looking for companies in the e-com space that are looking for their audience and looking to connect best with their audience. I mean, is that how you describe it or how would you describe what you do as a consultant?

Tim (19:06):
I would, yeah, I, I I do a lot of things. I would say that there are a lot of ways that I have been given or there’s a lot of opportunities that I’ve been given to learn in this industry. And because I’ve had my kind of, kind of had my finger on the pulse of things and I’ve been able to see kind of behind some curtains, what that’s allowed me to do is understand how certain e-commerce growth facilitators find success or not. Now, an e-commerce growth facilitator growth, not gross growth facilitator is it’s largely a service provider. It’s someone like yourself, rich. If, if you were not around, there’d be a lot of e-commerce sellers that would not know how to protect themselves, you know, through, through legal forms. If there were not software companies to do research, if there were not logistics companies that were specifically catered to small and medium sized e-commerce businesses, if there were not warehouses that knew how to do F B A prep, all of these different businesses, lenders, FinTech companies, brokers, I mean everybody, we as a network of service providers have created a much larger opportunity for e-commerce brands.

Tim (20:19):
So I call this group of, of service providers, or sometimes it’s even free software, even communities and masterminds, growth facilitators. We facilitate growth e-commerce. And I hold this grouping of entities very near and dear to my heart because those entities are the, the reason that I was able to be successful in e-commerce. I never would’ve made it without going to conferences and learning in communities and having software software to help me figure this out and having logistics that, that understood me as a business owner and how they could help me. So I think to date, I have worked with or currently work with between 30 and 35 companies in this space. So the things that I help them with are, uh, marketing strategy, with sales strategy, with business development and partnerships pretty heavily. But also things like product development. You know, I was recently speaking to a, let’s let, let’s just say they’re involved in video marketing for e-commerce sellers and they have some really cool tech, they have some really cool stuff going on.

Tim (21:27):
And I was able to sit down to them in just minutes and say, Hey, if you slightly adjusted this, this would be a lot more valuable to me as a seller. Well of course that’s great advice to them cause it makes it easier for them to, you know, market this product to sellers. So I definitely didn’t come in thinking, oh, I’m gonna be an advisor and a consultant. Uh, I just am able to wear a lot of hats, kinda like you said, from the seller hat to the service provider hat to the community owner and manager hat to a content creator hat to, uh, a consultant. And it gives me an opportunity to have some impact in an industry that really is changing e-commerce into the e-commerce. So it’s a lot of fun to be able to just witness all of those that are kind of the tip of the spear.

Rich (22:10):
Yes. And that’s a very humble way to describe it, but I would say part of your genius is, is seeing how to connect those dots and, uh, and you’ve given great advice to me in that regard, consulting with me. And I, I really appreciate it. You’ve, you’ve had a big impact on me and my business and I’ve seen you have a big impact on many other businesses. So thanks for doing that.

Tim (22:30):
I’m begrudgingly saying thank you

Rich (22:33):
<laugh> Yeah. Um, and uh, you know, let’s talk, you know, let, let’s just talk a little bit finally about, um, carbon six and what you’ve doing over there. And it’s very interesting. So you’ve got company that, um, that basically sprang up, um, to, um, um, put together software tools for sellers, right? And you’ve got a bunch of founders that are kind of, um, um, you know, business school graduates and such and like have some very impressive entrepreneurial backgrounds, um, and, um, a and they tapped you to be a co-founder because of your special genius as I call it. You don’t have to accept that, but that’s what I’m gonna call it, you know, in connecting the dots. So how’s that been for you?

Tim (23:22):
It has been one of the most challenging, but most rewarding, you know, periods in my life. Um, the whole idea of Carbon six is that these facilitators of growth are largely software companies. There’s a lot of them and most e-commerce sellers, if you open up their laptop, they would have 27 tabs open and they’re bouncing around between all these different tools and all these different data points and all these, and it’s inefficient, but also just cuz of time. But it’s also inefficient in the data is probably incomplete because when you’re pulling all these pieces of data from different locations, you’re trying to kind of, um, consolidate and aggregate that yourself and you’re just business operations, you’re gonna make mistakes, you’re gonna miss points. So the idea with Carbon Six was that we can start to bring together all of these data and research and analytics and optimization research, um, tools into one ecosystem that learns from itself and that is impacted by the top thought leaders in the industry.

Tim (24:27):
So think about that. A lot of the, in fact, every single one of our tools, we’ve acquired 18 of them now, were created by an online seller that had a need to fulfill and there wasn’t something to do it, so they went and created it. So essentially what we’re doing is we’ve created an ecosystem of impactful growth facilitation software tools that are the, I don’t know, the scalable digital version of the expertise of the founders, which is pretty stink and cool. So we haven’t just acquired software tools. We have also brought in some of the, the brightest, some of the most, uh, impactful and some of the most caring, uh, kind of leaders in this industry into one ecosystem that software community and um, and e-commerce sellers.

Rich (25:21):
Yeah, no, that’s amazing. And I, I, I love that characterization because it, it makes so much sense that it, it really is the, uh, an accumulation of the collective genius of different sellers solving their problems. So people, people who have found a, um, a solution, um, and um, you know, and, uh, and so someone that’s, that’s using this bundle of tools is getting all of the ninja hacks essentially of, of that accumulation or that grouping of, uh, founders. Um, and I think you said it better than I did, but still, um, I’m

Tim (25:59):
Actually writing down what you said, an accumulation of the collective genius of sellers that has solved the problems to make their business larger. Something like

Rich (26:10):
That. All right. So maybe I did say it. Okay. <laugh>.

Tim (26:13):
Yeah, I’m literally writing it down.

Rich (26:15):
Cool. Well, um, uh, you know, I think that’s awesome and, and, and though my question, um, was, you know, how’s it for you personally and you start to say it’s been extremely challenging and just anything why you’d wanna say about like how it’s been for you to be, um, involved in this process?

Tim (26:34):
Challenging, but very rewarding. So, so what we did has never been done before. It’s exceptionally fun and the personal growth that I’ve been able to receive cuz I’m stuck in a room with people that are way smarter than me. It’s been awesome. But then I also get to keep my finger on a larger pulse. Carbon six has more than 250,000 users right now. E-commerce brands and sellers, that’s massive. So the data that we see, not individual data, we don’t get into people’s individual data, but the the aggregate data, the trends, the trends, yeah. Yeah. The, the actual growth curves, the, the things that we can do to impact a series of businesses and we can see those businesses be impacted. Like it’s really, really powerful stuff. It’s a lot of fun. But then also I get to work with people like yourself. It gives me, uh, a larger opportunity, I should say, to work with different communities, different thought leaders, different experts, uh, different seller groups.

Tim (27:29):
I’m involved now in groups of sellers that I did not know existed until I got involved with Carbon Six. Uh, last year I flew 350,000 actual miles around the world, and that’s not including China that I used to go to a lot. And now this year I’ve been invited to the Alibaba headquarters to meet with the CEO of Alibaba, right? So how cool is it that I get to just be around these people that are so influential in the e-commerce as I’m gonna start calling it instead of e-commerce and, uh, I just kind of get to be along for the ride. So challenging but a lot of fun and very, very gratifying to be able to be a part of such a cool entrepreneur organization and, you know, have an impact on a great entrepreneurial community that literally is changing the face of e-commerce on the face of the earth.

Rich (28:17):
So cool. And, uh, if, if people wanna learn more about you again to contact with you, how do they go about doing so,

Tim (28:24):
So you’ll be the first to hear. Um, I am launching a free coaching program and I at one point dabbled around me and my partner, partner Norm Ferra with a small coaching group that it was paid and we kind of perfected the art of group coaching. So we bring in a bunch of people new zoom call, we have lessons that we go through, and then we interact with everybody and everybody asks questions and they hear the answers. And I am launching that April, 2023, so I guess this month. Um, and to find out more about that and to get signed up absolutely for free, just go over to private label legion.com and there’s a giant button on the top of the page to join Centurion League is what it’s called. So Centurion is like the inner circle of the, the Roman Legion Army, right? So private label legion.com and then hit the big button that says Join Centurion League.

Tim (29:15):
Or you can track me down on LinkedIn or on Facebook. I’m kind of all over both of those, but, but Rich, you heard it first. Free coaching is being launch in this month now this coming month. And, um, it’s gonna be awesome, have some of the brightest people in the industry involved. We have Destiny Shaun collaborating like Destiny’s never done this before. We have the Paul Barons of the world. Um, I really need a good IP lawyer to come in and be the in-house expert, if you know of one. It would be great if you could connect me. That would

Rich (29:44):
Be awesome. I mean, if, if I know a good IP lawyer, I will send them your way. But if you can deal with like, kind of like a mediocre kind of has been guy, then I’d be happy to to to play in your play in your sandbox. He he would be a

Tim (29:57):
Great company.

Rich (29:58):
Yeah. <laugh>. Cool. Uh, well Tim, I really appreciate you taking the time to come back to the show. Uh, and if anyone wants to hear a bit more of Tim’s backstory, check out the, the episode I did with him, maybe about two, maybe close to three years ago. Uh, actually I think it was about three years ago. And, uh, you, we talk about Tim’s background, you know, as a firefighter and like, and, and all these other cool things selling, you know, bootleg, uh, you know, candy bars and um, whatever. But yeah, check, check out that episode and uh, again, Tim, thanks for coming back to the show. Really appreciate your time. Yep, thank you.

Outro (30:43):
Thanks for listening to Innovations and Breakthroughs with your host Rich Goldstein. Be sure to click subscribe, check us out on the web at innovationsandbreakthroughs.com and we’ll see you next time.